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Talk:Yin–Yang Release
Name Are we actually sure that this is a thing. As in, are we sure that a combined nature of Yin Release and Yang Release actually exists? Because from re-reading the fourth databook entry on it, I'm getting a feeling that whenever "Onmyōton" is mentioned, it really just means "Yin Release and Yang Release" as two seperate powers. There are a lot of examples that suggest this being true (I'm leaving Onmyōton untranslated since it's the point of debate): * The picture shows the Yinyang symbol from chapter 510, the caption reads "Mental and physical energy. That is Onmyōton.", which wouldn't make sense if Onmyōton was a combination of Yin Release and Yang Release, since it's those two that are mental and physical energy. * The text says "Deftly manipulating these two properties, the Sage of Six Paths—Ohtsutsuki Hagoromo—developed the Creation of All Things Jutsu.", not one property that would be "Yin-Yang Release". * The picture shows Naruto trying to explain Kakashi's new eye, the caption says "Having gained Hagoromo's power, Naruto was able to perfectly demonstrate the power of Onmyōton.", although Naruto only has Yang Release according to the same databook (and yes, I'm aware that it's faulty). * The text says "Furthermore, there are many "hiden ninjutsu" passed down among specific shinobi clans that are not affiliated with any of the five nature transformations but are instead grounded in Onmyōton.", which ties in with the next point: * The picture shows Shikamaru using his shadows, the caption says "Traces of Onmyōton can be found in certain hiden ninjutsu...!!", although the main body clarified that "the Nara clan uses Yin Release to stretch and alter their shadows.", which along with the previous point further proves what I'm thinking. Besides that, it would not fit the entire "one power split in two" premise, with Naruto and Sasuke getting one power each, if Naruto would still be able to use a combination of both powers on his own. The only text example that I can think of that are somewhat different are the character index of db4, where it's not "Onmyō", but "In, Yō" in the list of the seven natures a ninja can have, as well as Zetsu's words about Kaguya's Gudodama, where it says "Fū Ka Do Rai Sui In Yō", again referring to all seven natures. The only time "In'yōton" was used was when Madara spoke to Obito about what he would teach him. So either there's a difference between Onmyōton (a combination of In and Yō) and In'yōton (listing both natures separately), ooooor I'm right. • Seelentau 愛 議 23:23, July 29, 2017 (UTC) :If they were simply being talked about as "Yin Release and Yang Release", wouldn't they be described as "Inton to Yōton" instead? I'm surprised to you see bringing this up, since unless I'm mistaken, I recall you always mentioning that Yin and Yang were not actual natures per se to begin with. My understanding, per the Shikamaru and Tayuya battle is that Yin and Yang both still composed both with physical and mental energy, just not evenly matched. It still takes blending the two energies to make chakra, so Yin can't be 100% just spiritual energy. Otherwise using spiritual and physical energy would mean just regular chakra everyone uses would be YY. It seems pointlessly counter-intuitive referring to either just Yin or just Yang as Onmyō. I think this could be your proposed difference between the two terms. If Onmyō is just using both physical and spiritual energies, then every chakra user would be an Onmyō user by definition, so there has to be something different for Hagoromo's use to be such a mythical thing. Honestly, I've seen so much discussion about this topic I'm burned out by it. Trying to make sense of the lore and logic of this manga is like trying to solve a Rubik's cube that had some of its squares deliberately switched, so no matter now much you tinker with it, there's always something that's not going to match. Omnibender - Talk - 21:23, July 30, 2017 (UTC) ::Well, this topic is kinda hard to understand, based on other places I've asked. My problem is that we, from my understanding, act as if there's something called Yin-Yang Release, made up of Yin Release and Yang Release, like an advanced chakra nature. However, going by the points above, that's not the case and all instances where Onmyōton is used, it's actually used like a list: "Yin (Release) and Yang Release". ::Another example (aside of those above) would be when Black Zetsu mentions Naruto's and Sasuke's Yin and Yang Seals: He uses the word "Onmyō no Chikara". If we would go by our current definition, he would speak about the "Yin-Yang Power", but we know for a fact (which is rather rare, as you said) that Naruto and Sasuke each had half of the Onmyō. So Black Zetsu spoke about the "Yin and Yang Powers", or "Sasuke's and Naruto's Powers". ::As a metaphor, imagine you have "earth" and "water" (in real life). Mixing them makes "mud", obviously. In this metaphor, we assume that Onmyō equals "mud", but it actually equals "earth and water" together, but not mixed. ::Or better yet, you could compare it to Typhoon Water Vortex Technique, which is Wind + Water, but not Ice. • Seelentau 愛 議 21:43, July 30, 2017 (UTC) :::I think mixing is the thing that confuses me the most. Like I said before, if by your interpretation Yin is just spiritual energy and Yang is just physical energy, what makes Hagoromo's use different and more powerful from what every shinobi does when they mould chakra as well? That's why your suggestion of the two terms meaning different things interested me. It's as if regular shinobi's use of spiritual and physical energy results in fully blended chakra (let's say mixing black and white to make grey), while Hagoromo's use is using them together, but not mixed or blended (using black and white without them mixing into grey, and remaining proper Yin and Yang). Omnibender - Talk - 22:05, July 30, 2017 (UTC) ::::Yin Release is like normal chakra, but with more spiritual energy, Yang Release is like normal chakra, but with more physical energy. Normal chakra is 50/50. ::::Imagine you have a glass that's filled with oil and water, the entire fluid equals chakra, the oil is one energy, the water the other. The fluid isn't a mix, right? It's still separated, even though it's in the same container. ::::Hagoromo's use of those energies isn't different from that of a normal ninja's, it's just more powerful or whatever. Besides, how would he even be supposed to mix Yin Release and Yang Release in the first place? Wouldn't the result be normal chakra? If you have 70/30 in one hand and 30/70 in the other, for example, the mix is still 100/100, or 50/50, or normal chakra. ::::Besides that, there are still all the points from above. Why would the caption say that Hiden ninjutsu use Yin-Yang Release, when they don't? Why would it say that Naruto used Yin-Yang Release, when he didn't? • Seelentau 愛 議 22:18, July 30, 2017 (UTC) :::::The why of Hagoromo's use being "more powerful or whatever" when the use of energies is the same irks me. There simply isn't an explanation. On the captions saying what they say, I honestly think Kishimoto just writes anything remotely cool-sounding to pad the lore without any regard for continuity. If it matches great, if it doesn't, tough luck. It's a lore mix of "discard and draw" and Jenga. Omnibender - Talk - 22:50, July 30, 2017 (UTC) ::::::Well then consider my agenda here to bring a little more order to the chaos^^ Maybe Hagoromo is different because he could use both Yin and Yang Release at the same time? Considering how he had both marks on his palms, after all. • Seelentau 愛 議 22:55, July 30, 2017 (UTC) :::::::This is a bit of what I tried implying above with the black, white, and grey analogy. However, wouldn't that lend credit to the interpretation of YY being something by itself? The one mark in each palm seems to parallel Yamato's one nature in each hand for Wood Release quite well. Both technically don't exist (like Kakashi said, there's isn't quite an actual wood nature, just earth and water being used together), but have a name for the unique effects for what they do together. Omnibender - Talk - 23:04, July 30, 2017 (UTC) ::::::::Then it would contradict the rest. As I said, Omnyō is likely to be similar to Typhoon Water Vortex Technique, which uses Water and Wind together, but doesn't use Ice Release. Or Naruto's and Sasuke's "Shakuton" jutsu. • Seelentau 愛 議 23:08, July 30, 2017 (UTC) What this would basically mean for the wiki is not a lot, actually. I would reword the article and we'd have to see who we're listing as a user of Onmyōton and revise that. This would include removing it as a separate chakra nature from the infoboxes. Izanagi is a good example how it would look there, although I don't know why that article has Yin and Yang separated already^^ • Seelentau 愛 議 13:35, July 31, 2017 (UTC) : Well, little common sense here. If techniques that use more spiritual energy than physical energy are Yin Release, if techniques that use more physical energy than spiritual energy are Yang Release, then what about techniques that are 50/50, are those Yin-Yang Release? But there are techniques that aren't known to be either, like Transformation Technique, Clone Technique, Shadow Clones etc. :So either basic techniques are Yin-Yang Release or there isn't such a thing to begin with..... But I still find it interesting that it's been written in 2 different ways. :But then again, we can't forget that the databook states Hiden techniques to be a fragment of Yin-Yang... Implying that there indeed is such a thing. --[[User:Elveonora|'Elve']] Talk Page| 22:24, August 1, 2017 (UTC) ::Please read again what I wrote: Techniques that use 50/50 are no release, they're simply chakra. ::And regarding the Hiden techniques, that's exactly my point: They're said to be a fragment of Yin-Yang, but all of them only use either Yin or Yang Release. • Seelentau 愛 議 01:10, August 2, 2017 (UTC) :::I know what you wrote, that's the point. In scenario that there's a thing such as Yin-Yang Release, it would have to be made from same ratio of both energies, but that's simply normal chakra as you wrote, so it's impossible for there to be YYR. :::What does fragment of Yin-Yang mean though? :::The only case existence of YYR would make sense is if the above analogy with water and oil is used. :::What if normal chakra is physical and spiritual energies still existing separately, not being merged, just used at the same time, water/oil? :::Then maybe what Six Paths Chakra is, is YYR chakra, water/oil completely merged into a new thing, different than ordinary chakra. :::To put it simply, ordinary chakra 50/50 ratio of energies is 'Mud' while Six Paths Chakra/Yin-Yang Release Chakra is 'Wood'--[[User:Elveonora|'Elve']] Talk Page| 05:18, August 2, 2017 (UTC) ::::Yes, the existence of a mixed natured called YYR wouldn't make any sense, as I explained. After all, the Yin and Yang chakras would still be normal chakra, only made up of different energy ratios. And if you would mix them, it would still result in normal chakra. There's simply no reason to mix them. ::::As you're saying, it's more likely that Onmyō refers to "Yin (Release) and Yang Release" and using them at the same time (like the Typhoon wind/water jutsu) is Six Paths, perhaps? Well, that doesn't work because the Six Paths users don't always have both natures... ::::I mean, there's a long list of arguments for my view and I don't see a lot supporting the existence of a Yinyang Release... • Seelentau 愛 議 18:09, August 2, 2017 (UTC) :I just realized something. Since there are six paths yin power and six paths yang power, and together they make six paths - Chibaku Tensei, there has to be a thing such as Yin-Yang Release.--[[User:Elveonora|'Elve']] Talk Page| 22:34, August 2, 2017 (UTC) ::Still nope. In that case, the translation makes it a little confusing. The literal translation would be "Power of Yin/Yang of Six Paths" and Sasuke even goes further and calls his own only "Power of Yin". Meaning he refers to the power of the Yin (on his palm) he got from Hagoromo. The fourth databook also uses "'Yin' and 'Yang'", as opposed to "'Yin Release' and 'Yang Release'". Hell, Hagoromo's Yin/Yang powers might not even be a Release in the first place. Furthermore, only because the two powers have to be used together, it doesn't mean that they produce a new power (or advanced nature). • Seelentau 愛 議 22:44, August 2, 2017 (UTC) The impression I get, which seems to be corroborated by the Japanese fandom (via the Japanese wiki, etc.) is that Yin Release and Yang Release both fall under the category of Yin-Yang Release, which is not an "advanced" chakra nature so much as an umbrella term for using the two natures seperately or in concert. Sort of like "mathematics" includes both "algebra" and "arithmetic." However the term also specifically refers to techniques that use Yin and Yang in concert, and there are relatively few techniques in the series specifically categorized as Yin-Yang Release, such as Creation of All Things, while most non-elemental ninjutsu used by shinobi can be categorized very simply as either Yin (mental/spiritual abilities) or Yang (physical abilities). It's likely that all shinobi can utilize Yin-Yang Release in a basic way, as it's the fundamental basis for all ninjutsu, but only someone like Hagoromo can master it to such a degree that they can actually create form from imagination and vice versa, and in such cases it's essentially a category unto itself. FF-Suzaku (talk) 08:25, August 3, 2017 (UTC) :I see, so that would add to my theory then, that for example Naruto didn't use an advanced nature called Yinyang Release, but Yang Release only to heal Guy and Kakashi, yes? Do you perhaps know what the Japanese fandom thinks about Six Paths and their connection to YYR? • Seelentau 愛 議 08:50, August 3, 2017 (UTC) By the way, if Naruto indeed used something called Onmyoton, then why did he say that he took a part of Kakashi? Onmyoton (the way Hagoromo used it) is creating form out of nothingness and breathing life into it. Not using something pre-existing. • Seelentau 愛 議 20:34, August 4, 2017 (UTC) :Uh, Hagoromo created the tailed beasts out of the Ten-Tails' chakra, so not quite nothing really. About the point of contention I had earlier (if YY is just regular chakra, why was Hagoromo just so extraordinarily better), I think I managed to think something based on something you said. Hagoromo is hyped on being able to use both of them together, while hiden jutsu use just fragments, either Yin or Yang, but not both right? If to have the different effects of Yin and Yang the energy ratio has to be skewed one way or the other, it would make sense that if the energies are balanced, the different effects can't take place. Maybe the reason Hagoromo's use of both was possible because he could use both in conjunction, but not mixed. The overall ratio of the energies is still the same, but by not mixing them together their different effects can still come out from both Yin and Yang. Borrowing from your TWVT example again, it'd be as if the most effective use is when they're used together but not mixed, like in TWVT, instead of mixed, like wind and water in the form of Ice Release, if that makes any sense. Omnibender - Talk - 21:03, August 4, 2017 (UTC) :So perhaps, if a technique is either Yin Release or Yang Release, it's Hiden, unless they are general technique like mystical palm etc. :Therefore if a technique is both Yin Release and Yang Release, it's a Six Paths. :But then again, if the monicker sage of six paths refers to nature transformations, the five would be fire, wind, lightning, earth, water... In that case why would a technique that is both Yin and Yang be considered the sixth nature, instead of Yin and Yang being considered the sixth and seventh nature respectively?--[[User:Elveonora|'Elve']] Talk Page| 21:42, August 4, 2017 (UTC) ::@Omni: Well, chakra is still nothing material, I guess that's what it's supposed to mean? And yes, that made sense and I proposed it myself, above^^ ::@Elve: Thing is, it wouldn't make sense for almost all times "Six Paths" is used. Except if it really was almost always used as a short form of "Hagoromo's". Regarding the Six Paths, that is actually a nice idea, I never thought about that. As for the sixth path, it can still be Onmyoton. Onmyoton is still a thing, it's just not what we currently make it out to be: an advanced nature. ::From what I understand, Onmyoton is a term that serves a) as an umbrella term for Yin Release and Yang Release (= all users of YR or YR are users of Onmyoton, but not all users of Onmyoton are users of both YR and YR), this is evidenced by Naruto's and Shikamaru's example in db4, and b) to describe the simultaneous use of both Yin Release and Yang Release, like Hagoromo did. • Seelentau 愛 議 23:29, August 4, 2017 (UTC) :::So everyone who can use either Yin Release or Yang Release is an Onmyoton user? It's just that Hagoromo, who is on whole other level can use both? Sakura can also use both, does that make her Hagoromo level? :::In that case, why would have Tobirama made a mess about Obito being an Onmyoton user if it were more common than originally thought?--[[User:Elveonora|'Elve']] Talk Page| 04:43, August 5, 2017 (UTC) ::::Tau, I know Hagoromo using both is what you suggested, what I tried elaborating was the why and how his use of both Ys is OP compared to regular shinobi's, instead of it being "just because". Something that explains the difference between Hagoromo using YY and regular shinobi using chakra when both are technically 50/50 physical and spiritual energies. Omnibender - Talk - 00:57, August 7, 2017 (UTC) :::::@Elve: No, it doesn't. I have no idea what the difference is, though. Also, Obito doesn't have Yang Release in the databook, so that's another point we need to discuss: Is it really Yinyang Release that can negate ninjutsu? :::::@Omni: Ah, I see. There are still some points that won't make sense, one way or another ._. • Seelentau 愛 議 01:43, August 7, 2017 (UTC) ::::::Or maybe there really is Yin-Yang Release. I know the language works differently, but if Yin-Yang truly were just an umbrella term for/discipline that both Yin and Yang fall under, wouldn't it rather be called Yin and Yang Releases? ::::::In other words, In'yoton :) When it's said that Hiden techniques are fragments of Yin-Yang Release, the only way for it to make sense is with Yin-Yang as a combined nature.--[[User:Elveonora|'Elve']] Talk Page| 02:25, August 7, 2017 (UTC) :::::::But that's exactly what I'm trying to say: Onmyō/Inyō isn't Yinyang, it's Yin and Yang. Even in real world. That's why we have a new icon for Wood Release, but the YYR icon is half-half. Also, I wouldn't put too much thought in the "fragment" stuff. The fourth databook throws that word in every now and then (Karin's chains, Kimimaro's bones etc.). :::::::However, the fourth databook also says that the TSB are made up of all five natures and Onmyō. So going by that alone, Naruto must have both Yin and Yang... gaah, where ever I go, I end up at a dead end. This manga is so frustrating .__. • Seelentau 愛 議 02:37, August 7, 2017 (UTC) ::::::::Exactly, and Obito must have Yang. For Sasuke, he must have Yang too. Indra inherited the 'Yin' part of Hago's chakra, while Asura inherited the 'Yang' part of Hago's chakra. The databook says that Asura's descendants the Senju most commonly have an affinity for Yang Release while Indra's descendants the Uchiha most commonly have an affinity for Yin Release. ::::::::But that's not my point, my point is that Asura's chakra + Indra's chakra = Hagoromo's chakra. Hagoromo's chakra = Rinnegan. Therefore Sasuke must have gotten some of that 'Asura' part of chakra from Hagoromo in order for the Rinnegan to be a thing. ::::::::Most likely, Onmyōton (Yin-Yang Release) truly is a thing in a sense of a combined nature, while every other instance, when In'yōton has been used is supposed to be 'Yin Release and Yang Release' ::::::::Also let's not forget that all instances of someone becoming an Onmyōton user is after receiving Six Paths Senjutsu. ::::::::So even though I agree with some of your points and I can see where you are coming from, the missing natures in 4th databook are certainly errors and the inconsistencies are bad writing.--[[User:Elveonora|'Elve']] Talk Page| 09:56, August 7, 2017 (UTC) :::::::::But Onmyo has also been used to refer to it. BZ gives the natures of Kaguya's TSB as "In, Yo", but in the databook it's "Onmyo". :::::::::Also, what should we do with the inconsistencies, then? I mean, things like Danzo not having Kuchiyose in db4 are obvious mistakes, but Naruto and Sasuke not having Yin and Yang, respectively, make sense because of the "two powers" maxime. • Seelentau 愛 議 13:20, August 7, 2017 (UTC) :Is it still one power split into two/opposite powers theme tho? I mean, Sasuke has Rinnegan, which isn't part of the 'Yin' part of Hago's chakra that Indra was born with, but rather the Rinnegan needs both parts. Same for Naruto, if truly YYR is a thing in a sense of combined nature and Naruto can use it, he no longer is as well the opposite to Sasuke's 'Yin' since Naruto would use Yin now as well.--[[User:Elveonora|'Elve']] Talk Page| 14:57, August 7, 2017 (UTC) ::Yes, that's the whole point of the last few chapters: Hagoromo giving two people his powers, instead of only one. That's why Naruto has the Yang seal and no Yin in db4, and Sasuke doesn't have Yang in db4 and has the Yin seal. So it doesn't make any sense that the TSB have Yinyang. ::The only thing we can say for sure is that Naruto didn't use YYR to heal Guy and Kakashi. • Seelentau 愛 議 18:15, August 7, 2017 (UTC) :::But even if you say that Naruto doesn't have Yin-Yang, he would still need Yin anyway as TSB are made of all natures, unless he is a special case.--[[User:Elveonora|'Elve']] Talk Page| 20:51, August 7, 2017 (UTC) ::::Been watching this discussion for a while. Is anything going to be resolved/changed? 23:00, August 14, 2017 (UTC) :::::Dunno, I translated the databook page to see for myself, and it only strengthened my view. I mean, it says "Furthermore, the "secret ninjutsu" passed down in shinobi clans are often based on Yin & Yang Release" and then gives Nara's Yin and Akimichi's Yang as examples. That's like saying fruit and then giving apples and bananas as examples. no? • Seelentau 愛 議 00:00, August 15, 2017 (UTC) ::::::So glad you're doing this fact-checking stuff. When you actually read Obito's initial explanation of Yin and Yang, he never says anything about combining them together to make something called Yin–Yang Release, he just starts using the term as if it's something the reader should know. We also know Kishimoto at one point intended there to be six natures (even though the databook later said seven), so it isn't too far-fetched to say Yin and Yang can be grouped together sometimes. Honestly the only thing that makes me doubt this interpretation of Yin–Yang is what Tobirama says in chapter 642. If Onmyōton is really just a term for "Yin and Yang", it's really strange that he makes such a big deal about Obito using it, when all techniques make use of Yin and Yang/spiritual and physical energies to some extent. But pretty much everything else backs up this theory in my opinion.--BeyondRed (talk) 01:14, August 16, 2017 (UTC) :::::::Yes, Tobirama's words don't fit. So there's either two definitions for "Onmyoton" or the Six Paths Onmyoton is different. I mean, if Onmyoton can negate chakra and Shikamaru uses Onmyoton in his ninjutsu, which uses chakra... how would that make any sense in the first place? • Seelentau 愛 議 01:36, August 16, 2017 (UTC)